Go ten layers deep
A dinner with Josie Zayner at Casa Nautilus
San Francisco,
July 16, 2025
Dear young polymath,
This is the third installment of a new series where we share insights from guests at Casa Nautilus. Nautilus is a 3-month residency for young polymaths. Proteges’ stay in SF is fully funded with accommodation, food and equipment included, so they can dive into their craft and build ambitious projects.
Have you ever heard a scientist answer a question saying, "I don’t fucking know," with laughter in their voice?
Meet Josie Zayner. She’s not your average PhD scientist. She’s a biohacker, artist, and a rebel who recodes DNA like it’s art. She’s best known for pioneering self-experimentation and democratizing access to genetic engineering (including CRISPR). Now, she's CEO of The Odin and The Los Angeles Project, dedicating her life to pushing the boundaries of biology, art, and human potential. Sitting across from her at dinner felt like being handed a lightning rod.
Josie believes we’re more than we think we are. She envisions a future where humanity transcends its current form.
"Imagine telling someone from the 1800s that we would later shoot rockets into space and make sand think. They’d see us as Gods and on some level I can't imagine that humans in the future wouldn’t create worlds with different math and physics."
She believes we are amateur gods. And to tap into that power, we must go deeper; ten layers deeper.
I. Go Deeper
For Josie, the path to profound insight lies in going “10 layers deeper” than others. This confrontation is central to her creative process:
"Get to the edge of the abyss, and see what you pull out when you look past it."
The Abyss encapsulates the emotional vertigo of realizing you don’t know what you’re capable of yet – Josie isn’t afraid of this feeling; she dives straight into it.
In a competitive world of 8 billion people, going deep isn't just curiosity, it's a strategic necessity.
To do this, here's an exercise to help you critically reflect. Ask yourself why five times. Each “why” peels back a layer of noise until you hit something real. Why did that project fail? Why do I want this outcome? Why am I afraid to start? Five “whys” and you’re suddenly not solving problems at the surface level—you’re going 10 layers beyond most people.
What is your truth? Where do you want to go? What pieces do you need to move to get there?
You can’t fake going 10 layers deep. Maybe 1, maybe 5. But true creativity and authenticity comes from being so in touch with yourself that your creation could only have come from you.
II. Build Worlds
Josie doesn’t just want to engineer DNA or build companies. She wants to build worlds.
To her, being a creator is what makes us human. It means not waiting for permission. It means making something only you could make, and putting it out there even if you don’t feel ready.
“Don’t be afraid. Just put it out there—whatever it is, however it is—and hope for the best. You have to press the gas pedal as hard as you can and take advantage of all the opportunities you have.”
She reminded us that nobody changes the world by accident. Those who bend the arc of reality dedicate their lives to it. She calls it “the illness”. World-building starts with saying yes to yourself, to risk, to the act of creating. It’s not just about being right, but also about knowing what you’re on Earth in your timeline to do:
“When I die, I want to be content on my deathbed. I want to know there’s nothing else I could imagine or want to do. If an alien came to Earth and said, ‘Find me someone who really lived,’ I hope that would be me.”
Every morning, nihilism and depression might try to come knocking at your door. It is up to you to look them in the eye and say: I know what I’m here to do.
III. Questions Polymaths Should Ask Themselves
During our dinner, Josie asked us questions we’ll never forget:
What do you find beautiful? How do you become the creator of that beauty? Let yourself be moved by things, and go on to add beauty onto the world.
What would keep you constantly entertained if someone locked you in solitary confinement for the rest of your life? What poems would you make from rocks? Or songs would you write in your head? Once you’ve found that, you’ve found your thing.
How do you practice being the most real version of yourself to other people? How do you not be afraid to fail and be cringe?
One thing about Miss Josie Zayner: she’s unapologetically herself. She walked into dinner in a black fire tutu dress, gold Melissa slippers, and the coolest haircut I’ve ever seen a scientist rock!
So don’t be like Josie, be yourself! Don’t wait for permission. Go 10 layers deep. Express something only you could.
What will you do next with the lightning rod in your hands? Come figure it out during Nautilus’ next cohort. Apply here.
Yours very truly,
MacKenzie Fisher, Philosofounder and a Nautilus protege.
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Cover image: Detail of Marie among the Elves, by Eduard Steinbrück, 1840
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